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scourge456789
I really should post more often
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 8
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 Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject: CGG / PGX... How to steal ALLLLL of CGC's Business . . . . . |
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| Start denoting on the label whether a book has been pressed or not. Get em' on coompetitive advantge. CGC will piss their pants. |
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Daniel @ PGX
PGX Senior Grader
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: CGG / PGX ...How to steal ALLLLL of CGC Buisiness . . . |
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| scourge456789 wrote: |
| Start denoting on the label whether a book has been pressed or not. Get em' on coompetitive advantge. CGC will piss their pants. |
We are making several changes in the way we do things here at PGX, one of them being that any pressing that can be determined 100% to be intentional will be noted on the label.
Most pressing is not difficult to determine if it was intentional or just done through time being in a stack of books, etc. This was a key point I attempted to get out at the Mark Zaid San Diego Comic Con forum.
This was another post I put up a few days ago:
I am happy to say we are going to start adding the top label to every book and this should begin in two to three weeks. We are going to see how it goes for a few months and make a determination after that whether we can continue to keep prices where they are currently at.
We are adding many other positive things to what we already offer. We have taken our current holder and made some minor improvements, taken out a few imperfections that were present in the outer holder.
We will also soon have a new holder that will better fit larger Golden Age and oversized books that push at the limits of our current holder. We are about 3 to 6 weeks away from having this new holder available.
We have added the Gallery to the website as well as a step-by-step guide to removing a book from a PGX holder. We will soon have a links page up that will link to different sites offering PGX graded books. Hopefully they can be set up like we have the ebay link set up where once you click on the link it automatically pulls up all PGX related material on the site. Try the Ebay link on the PGXcomics.com website to see what I mean.
With almost 35,000 books graded to date we are still working on getting the census up and available for use. This has proven difficult and very time consuming and I say 'thank you' to everyone for your patience.
For people that are struggling to find high grade modern books we are going to be adding a page that details what we look at when grading high grade moderns and what to look for when you are selecting books for potential 9.8 or 9.9's
We have also added a new member to the PGX team, Yam, who will be working in the encapsulation dept. He will also be a member of our Quality control team that helps guarantee any errors are caught and corrected.
We will soon have a page up on the website that will include the list of upcoming shows that we will either be setting up at or attending.
There are at least a half dozen other ideas and things we are working on that will either improve our existing service or add new options for our customers.
Thanks for taking the time to read my post,
Daniel 
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Last edited by Daniel @ PGX on Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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iron maniac
STILL a maniac after all these years...
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 4022
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Moving this to pro-graded so everyone can see it there too. 
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Daniel @ PGX
PGX Senior Grader
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| iron maniac wrote: |
| Moving this to pro-graded so everyone can see it there too. |
Either later tonight or tomorrow I will respond to questions that where raised either here or on the CGC boards.
Daniel
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Daniel @ PGX
PGX Senior Grader
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Let me address this quickly. Since grading this batch up books we have adjusted our standards when it comes to tanning. I do feel several of the books from this order were overgraded and this resulted in an immediate review of our standards on tanning and this was followed by an appropriate adjustment to our grading standards to help guarantee against future books being graded improperly.
Daniel
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Daniel @ PGX
PGX Senior Grader
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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The pressing is a step in the right direction. But as of now I don't know if pressing is a real problem with PGX considering CGC tends to get far more of the higher dollar books. Not to mention the problem with detection.
I think if I was PGX I would,
First hire a known name for restoration detection.
Second, give a list of all PGX books submitted by Elliot/Leder. Or at least track some of these books down to get them regraded. As many of us know many restored books submitted by T Leder were missed by PGX.
Third , come clean about the doctored scan that was given in regards to missing the trimmed ASM book.
Forth, clean up their act on pg quality. There are some really tan PGX books that aren't noted "tan" on the label
If PGX followed these steps I believe they would be TRUE competition against CGC and the hobby would be a better place for it.
Above all I am most disappointed in their handling of restoration detection.
They REALLY need to address this, even more so than CGC. They have issues with questionable sellers T. Leder/R. Elliot/M. Adams/
Known on e-bay as ponytailblunder/ma4pres/etc.
Feel free to pass this on to Mr. Patterson.
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I agree with you on all points. PGX has made strides but if CGC misses restoration and trimming, I suspect PGX can do no better at the detection. They really do need a well known restoration expert on their payroll.
Edit. I guess Rip's comments reflect the opinion of many who have posted.
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Harvey Dude,
It's not even a question of PGX being able to "do no better." PGX's restoration detection skills are downright lousy. Daniel can correct me if I'm wrong, but he has had ZERO formal training in or experience with restoration. Even though CGC missed all the trimming on Ewert's books, at least Borock, Haspel, and Litch are better at spotting restoration than most people in the hobby. PGX has a very steep learning curve ahead of itself and the longer it waits to get the training Daniel needs, the worse it'll get. |
How about we all start with what's happening now. Let's forget about the 1st six months we came to the market and all the rumors about this or that. I guarantee no one has posted the truth. Believe what you want, we did make a few mistakes, one being trying to respond improperly to posts (should have taken a hint from CGC on that one). Despite this, I know everything that was posted was far blown up from what the truth is. We stand behind every book we have graded, including every book graded for leder or anyone else that just happens to live in Oregon.
I haven't seen or heard of a single book we have missed restoration on in almost two years. Well, except for one book where someone intentionally replaced a staple needlessly for the sole purpose to try and sneak it past us. I have no proof of this but I do trust the source.
Let me touch on the 'They really do need a well known restoration expert on their payroll' comment. While this sounds good this is not necessarily true. Our restoration person spotted slight color touch on a customers book minutes after looking at the book, we recommended the customer have the color touch removed by a restoration professional (as this is something we do not do), it was sent to one of the top professionals in the industry, through the third-party not us, and it took them several days and some assistance just to locate the color touch.
I say this to make a point, doesn't it make sense that someone who has spent 15+ years studing restoration and the art of spotting other people's restoration, but choose not to pursue a career as a restoration professional, likely be better at spotting restoration rather than someone who performs restoration for a living and has no need to train themselves to spot other people's restoration?
And since our detection skills are being called into question I will throw this out there also, and you can take it as you will. At the time I did not think to document anything, but our restoration person was pointing out JE books to us as far back as 18 months ago and had repeately told us that this would come to light at some point. I don't say this to stir up anything, simply to clarify that we have professional detection skills working here at PGX.
Daniel
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Daniel @ PGX
PGX Senior Grader
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Here is an idea I have brought up several times before where both companies could be tested. Although this would not be simple and because of TAT's it would take well over a year it could still be done.
1st, gather a varying group of books together.
2nd, submit several books to a restoration professional that has no ties or relationship with either company to have restoration performed. Not needless restoration performed for no reason other than to try and sneak it past graders but restoration that might normally be performed on a book.
3rd, have the books verified and graded by a respected person in the industry that has no ties or relationship with either company. This would be difficult as it would need to be someone that has never used either company and they would need to have no knowledge of what the books were going to be used for.
4th, find a third-party, beyond reproach, reseach company to send the set of books to both companies two or three times, documenting everything each time the books came back, insuring that books have not been damaged, etc.
5th, have the results published. This would need to be done correctly so as no one could suggest either company had knowledge of this being done.
Just an idea.
Daniel
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Daniel @ PGX
PGX Senior Grader
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I will see about getting our restoration person to post about how pressing can be determined. While it is true pressing that is done 'correctly' is very hard to determine, incorrect or amauter pressing is not all that difficult to detect.
Daniel
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Daniel @ PGX
PGX Senior Grader
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
IMO, they will catch the amateur press jobs, where the evidence is readily apparent. The pro press jobs will slip through.
If resto experts can't always detect press jobs, how in the world is Daniel Patterson going to do it? |
This is probably very true, although even professional pressing can often be readily apparent. A lot of it depends on how much pressing was done, minor/subtle pressing may be near impossible to detect. But what we are trying to do here is provide the best possible effort to inform anyone buying a PGX graded book an accurate description of the condition of the book, if restoration is present, and if the book has been altered in any way (pressing).
It would probably be easier just to ignore pressing rather than putting ourselves out there in a good faith effort knowing that all pressing cannot be detected, and we may lose some business, but we are always trying to put our customers first and I believe this is another instance where we are doing everything possible to deliver as much information to our customers as possible.
Daniel
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Daniel @ PGX
PGX Senior Grader
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Insurance? I know people who have had books lost, and at first were offered a few free submissions, they eventually got about 20, still I would have rather had the books back or the GPA top prices as it was there fault for losing them! |
Posted by herc2000
Are you talking about PGX? Because if you are let me say there is no truth to this at all. We have never lost a single book that has been in our possession.
Daniel
P.S. I hope everyone here at STL doesn't mind I am attempting to respond to questions raised on the CGC here.
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Ekos
Secret Basement Comic Store Owner
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 628
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Its cool, I'd rather see the uninterrupted version 
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Carlos
http://www.absolutevitamins.net
I have finally completed my 1968 Sub-Mariner run 8) |
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fantasyfootballbono
Secret Basement Comic Store Owner
Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 724
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Daniel @ PGX wrote: |
I will see about getting our restoration person to post about how pressing can be determined. While it is true pressing that is done 'correctly' is very hard to determine, incorrect or amauter pressing is not all that difficult to detect.
Daniel |
But why make a special label notation for a book that suffered DAMAGE as a result of improper pressing? Why not just downgrade it? If it was DAMAGED by the press, then it's not "RESTORED," is it? As it is, you're giving pressed books a double-whammy -- the lower grade due to the damage AND the restored/PRESSED label. The upshot of this is that pressing, which is the least invasive of all restoration techniques and the most accepted in the marketplace today, gets treated worse than a book with color touch or a tear seal. |
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iron maniac
STILL a maniac after all these years...
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 4022
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| fantasyfootballbono wrote: |
| Daniel @ PGX wrote: |
I will see about getting our restoration person to post about how pressing can be determined. While it is true pressing that is done 'correctly' is very hard to determine, incorrect or amauter pressing is not all that difficult to detect.
Daniel |
But why make a special label notation for a book that suffered DAMAGE as a result of improper pressing? Why not just downgrade it? If it was DAMAGED by the press, then it's not "RESTORED," is it? As it is, you're giving pressed books a double-whammy -- the lower grade due to the damage AND the restored/PRESSED label. The upshot of this is that pressing, which is the least invasive of all restoration techniques and the most accepted in the marketplace today, gets treated worse than a book with color touch or a tear seal. |
Good point. I agree completely.
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Davenport
Comics are my Life
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 1367
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:13 am Post subject: |
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I'm not clear on some points about PGX noting pressing. Did Daniel say it would be noted on a "restored" label (the double whammy)?
Reading the CGC boards it's obvious there's a rift between collectors on the pressed issue. My opinion is pro-graders should treat it as a nuetral benign observance.
As part of a restorative process it gets a Restored label and noted (staples replaced, tear sealed, cover cleaned, pressed).
If it's a professional press that is 100% knowable (submittor provided info or detected info) it should be noted on a Universal label, "pressed".
It's not a pro-grader's job to decide if pressing is desirable/undesirable, or withhold the information. Just put it on an appropriate label and let the folks decide what to do with it.
Some buyer may be thrilled to pick up a PGX graded comic where someone else has already paid for a pro-pressing service. Someone else may be a purist and want to avoid pressed books the plauge. A label note provides a choice. |
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iron maniac
STILL a maniac after all these years...
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 4022
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I think that needs to be clarified here, are the books PGX marks as "pressed" going to be in a universal label or a restored label?
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Daniel @ PGX
PGX Senior Grader
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| iron maniac wrote: |
| Yes, I think that needs to be clarified here, are the books PGX marks as "pressed" going to be in a universal label or a restored label? |
As it stands now they would be put in the regular label with a notation. This is to go into effect November 1st. Would you guys like to see a poll on this issue? There are other ways to treat this like FFB pointed out. A book could just be downgraded rather than a notation or perhaps rather than a just a notation a book could receive a Qualified grade with a notation.
This is a touchy subject for many people and a difficult one that will never please everyone. We only want to do what will be best for our customers and the people that look to buy PGX graded books. If restoration is noted, signatures are noted, why not pressing. Doesn't it affect the book? Wouldn't it potentially affect a buyer's decision? Would you rather know 50% of the time if a book has been pressed or none of the time?
It's a tough subject, no doubt, I just hope we make the right decision.
Daniel
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fantasyfootballbono
Secret Basement Comic Store Owner
Joined: 12 Dec 2004
Posts: 724
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel @ PGX wrote: |
| iron maniac wrote: |
| Yes, I think that needs to be clarified here, are the books PGX marks as "pressed" going to be in a universal label or a restored label? |
As it stands now they would be put in the regular label with a notation. This is to go into effect November 1st. Would you guys like to see a poll on this issue? There are other ways to treat this like FFB pointed out. A book could just be downgraded rather than a notation or perhaps rather than a just a notation a book could receive a Qualified grade with a notation.
This is a touchy subject for many people and a difficult one that will never please everyone. We only want to do what will be best for our customers and the people that look to buy PGX graded books. If restoration is noted, signatures are noted, why not pressing. Doesn't it affect the book? Wouldn't it potentially affect a buyer's decision? Would you rather know 50% of the time if a book has been pressed or none of the time?
It's a tough subject, no doubt, I just hope we make the right decision.
Daniel |
Honestly, I am more concerned about you tagging books with false positives. I don't mind if you put the note on a regular "unrestored" label if you are 100% sure, but the only books where you'll be that sure are the super-creased-but-unnaturally-flat monsters that no one cares about anyway. This will do nothing to cure the real problem, which is the 9.2s-turned-into-9.6s. |
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Davenport
Comics are my Life
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 1367
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Daniel @ PGX wrote: |
It's a tough subject, no doubt, I just hope we make the right decision.
Daniel |
I hope this doesn't come across as too simplistic, but you could just "do your job" and leave the rest to the marketplace.
[OPINION ALERT!] 
I don't think the Great Pressing Is/Isn't Restoration debate is what this is all about. From all the posts I've read it strikes me as a Fairness issue. About leveling the playing feild in a rigged grading game.
An "independent" 3rd party grading service should remain independent of ANY seller/buyer/collector slants. The task is to examine an artifact, decern/communicate condition to ALL, and render a grade opinion. Pretty clear boundaries. What people do with the condition info and grade opinion after you've done your job is really not your concern.
I think that's where the CGC/PCS approach goes south. An independent 3rd party grading service should NOT be helping sellers sell. They should NOT decide for everyone what is/isn't relevant information. More likely than not it's taking an 'advantage-seller' position to limit disclosure. It creates a 'we won't tell' loop-hole that gets exploited.
I think Zipper's blog entry sums up nicely the overall market effect of having an independent 3rd party grading service with selective disclosure limits. (To me anyway, even though he was refering to autographs.)
"...all collectibles fields are a real mess now. Too much money is involved and it has brought out the big time scam artists and bloodsuckers seeking to drain gullible collectors of every last penny." |
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Zipper68
Comics are my Life
Joined: 19 Dec 2004
Posts: 1396
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Davenport wrote: |
| "...all collectibles fields are a real mess now. Too much money is involved and it has brought out the big time scam artists and bloodsuckers seeking to drain gullible collectors of every last penny." |
It's off topic, but just so comic collectors don't feel alone with their pressing, trimming and other problems.
Check this out from eSCD:
It's an idea that's likely to raise a few eyebrows in the hobby, but a new company has figured out a way to remove autographs from baseballs. Alan Berman, founder of Signed Baseball Magic, talks with SCD's Scott Kelnhofer about the new process that can take a multi-signed baseball with, say, Doc Ellis and Roberto Clemente, and quite thorougly remove the former, leaving behind only the latter and a very different -- and more valuable -- collectible.
I looked online for more information on this practice and could not find any.
Whether it's pressing, trimming, toning (coins), forging or removing unwanted signatures to manufactire a more valuable "single signed" ball, it's just another way for an opportunistic scavenger to take collectible and artificially make it worth more, that is, drain a few more drops of blood from the flatlining corpus of a hobby. |
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Daniel @ PGX
PGX Senior Grader
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Davenport wrote: |
| Daniel @ PGX wrote: |
It's a tough subject, no doubt, I just hope we make the right decision.
Daniel |
I hope this doesn't come across as too simplistic, but you could just "do your job" and leave the rest to the marketplace.
[OPINION ALERT!]
I don't think the Great Pressing Is/Isn't Restoration debate is what this is all about. From all the posts I've read it strikes me as a Fairness issue. About leveling the playing feild in a rigged grading game.
An "independent" 3rd party grading service should remain independent of ANY seller/buyer/collector slants. The task is to examine an artifact, decern/communicate condition to ALL, and render a grade opinion. Pretty clear boundaries. What people do with the condition info and grade opinion after you've done your job is really not your concern.
I think that's where the CGC/PCS approach goes south. An independent 3rd party grading service should NOT be helping sellers sell. They should NOT decide for everyone what is/isn't relevant information. More likely than not it's taking an 'advantage-seller' position to limit disclosure. It creates a 'we won't tell' loop-hole that gets exploited.
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My feelings exactly!
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